Voices of the African Diaspora Stories Across Continents

Speaker: 00:00:00

Dr. Niyi Coker: So he brought small

people basically and said, Oh, well,

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don't you see how they look like, you

know, chimpanzees and monkeys and the

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New York times actually, you know,

wrote stories praising it to sell.

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Yeah, this Africans are the closest

things to monkeys and chimpanzees.

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And, you know, and basically at the

end of the wall stay, um, He took

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him to the Bronx Zoo and, you know,

basically, you know, got some money

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from him for him at the Bronx Zoo.

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And, uh, the director of the Bronx Zoo put

him in the, in the cage, you know, with

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the monkeys and the chimpanzees to, You

know, so that people could come and watch,

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Tony Tidbit: we'll discuss race and how

it plays a factor, how we didn't even talk

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about this topic because we were afraid

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BEP Narrator: a black

executive perspective.

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Tony Tidbit: Welcome to a black executive

perspective podcast, a safe space where

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we discuss all matters related to race,

especially race in corporate America.

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I'm your host, Tony Tippett.

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Chris P. Reed: And I'm

your cohost, Chris P.

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Reid.

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Before we get started today, let

me give a shout out to Code M.

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Remember to check out our

partners, Code M magazine.

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: 00:01:05

Whose mission is saving the black

family by first saving the black man.

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: 00:01:09

Check them out at CodeMMagazine.

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: 00:01:11

com.

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Thanks,

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Tony Tidbit: Chris.

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So in today's episode, we delve

into the known history of Africa and

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its extensive diaspora stretching

from the continent itself to the

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Americas and the Pacific islands.

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We will explore the rich cultural

heritage, key movements, and

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profound connections that bind

these diverse communities.

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Joining us today is Dr.

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Niyi Coker, professor and director of

the School of Theater, Television, and

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Film at San Diego State University.

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He will guide us through these

intricate narratives and the history

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that remains largely unknown to most.

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Chris P. Reed: Let me tell

you a little bit about Dr.

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Coker.

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So he's earned several accolades,

including the Washington DC Kennedy

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center award for directing his films

have garnered international recognition

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with black studies, USA reaching

finalist status at the Hollywood

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black film festival and Ota Benga.

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Human at the zoo premiering at

the Smithsonian museum and winning

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best documentary at the London

nternational film festival in: 2016

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His script for pennies for a

boatman won best film script at

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the 2012 Madrid international Dr.

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Coker significant works include directing

Miriam McCabe, mama Africa, the musical

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in Cape town, supported by a Carnegie

fellowship and the U S consulate, which

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toured the United States in 2018 and 19.

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Prior to his current role,

he spent 14 years as the E.

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Desmond Lee Endowed Chair and

Distinguished Professor at the University

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of Missouri, Go Tigers, and has served

as a Visiting Artistic Director at

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various international universities.

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Dr.

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Niyi Coker, Jr.

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Welcome to a black executive

perspective podcast.

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Dr. Niyi Coker: Thank you so, so much.

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I'm really, really honored to be here

and, um, just to be part of this.

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And, you know, uh, it's really,

it's really exciting for me.

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Tony Tidbit: Well, listen, we,

we are excited that you're here.

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We want to hear your perspective about

the African diaspora and, you know,

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our audience is excited just as we are

because of your extensive background.

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I mean, we're blessed to be in.

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Presence, and we can't wait to

learn a lot more about Africa,

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its history, its movements.

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So this is an exciting time for us.

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So Dr.

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Coker, why don't you tell us a

little bit, you know, about where

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you're currently residing and

a little bit about your family?

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Dr. Niyi Coker: Well, um, I currently

stay in San Diego, um, San Diego,

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California, and, um, really enjoy

being here in San Diego, not just

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because of the weather and the, uh,

the people and the vibe, uh, basically.

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And one of the.

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Things I really enjoy about being

in San Diego is it, um, affords me

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the, uh, opportunity to, you know,

go in and out of, um, visiting

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Mexico, Tijuana, Rosarito, and,

you know, the Baja California area.

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Um, and actually I practically spend

all my weekends, um, down there.

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Um, it's, um, you know, because

it's, there's, there's just a lot

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of culturally affirming, um, aspects

of, uh, Mexican life that I find.

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Um, being in the area and, um,

understanding the contributions of

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African people, um, to that civilization.

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And, well, I'm still continuing

to understand it, of course.

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And, um, it's just very, very, very,

you know, uh, like I said, you know,

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people always talk about folks running

to the north or escaping to the north,

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um, you know, during the periods

of the dark days of enslavement.

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Um, nobody People forget that there were

folks who ran to the South, um, because,

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I mean, you know, it wasn't always Canada,

um, there's that history of Africans

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who went South because it was closer

to, you know, the Southern parts of the

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United States, you know, um, for, uh,

uh, for Africans to get there through

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Texas, or, you know, um, many outlets

and, uh, actually created communities,

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large communities, uh, in Mexico.

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Wow.

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So, um, that's a, that's

a lesson on history.

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I mean, you know, I mean, if you were

in Texas, where would you be running to?

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You're not going to look at Canada.

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Tony Tidbit: No, I mean, you know what?

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I'd be honest.

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I never, I never thought of that.

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Never knew it.

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I figured that.

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If you wanted to run, if you're in Texas

and you want to run further South, I

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mean, and then there's no else to run.

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So you just like give up.

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They got me as nowhere else for me to go.

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So I didn't even think about Chris.

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Do you know anything that you,

you're a historian, you've got

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a great history background.

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Chris P. Reed: Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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No, I was totally unaware of that.

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I mean, it makes sense when

you say it out loud, obviously.

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Right.

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When you think of it in

retrospect, but I think there's

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so much of what we think of our.

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Uh, coming of age story as, as

African Americans is always centered

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around that Southern region,

that Bible built type of region.

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And we don't think about the people.

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We don't think about the people

further to the West and things of

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that nature or any of the struggles,

even in the North at that time, like,

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where do you go when you're not,

when you're being infringed upon?

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So that's a very, that might be something

we might need to pod at some point.

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We got to do a podcast

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Tony Tidbit: on that because

that's a whole level of information

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that, that escapes all of us.

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Most definitely,

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Dr. Niyi Coker: please.

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I think you really should because as

African people around the globe are

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beginning to see their connections and

that connectivity, um, we forget that it's

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only recently that, you know, um, on the

Mexican law now, you know, afro Mexicans

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are now, you know, legitimately affirmed

and asserted, you know, I think was two

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years ago that that was on the ballot.

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You know, to affirm the identity, to say,

no, you know, we might be Mexican, but we

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are Afro Mexican in the sense that we, you

know, come from a stock of African people.

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Um, I mean, historically, if you look

at parts of, uh, Mexico, uh, parts

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like, uh, Veracruz, um, you would

find that in Veracruz, there, uh, used

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to be, um, an enslaved African that

named El Yanga, um, E L Y A N G A.

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Whose statue basically opens up the

city now as he's breaking chains.

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And, you know, it's a, uh, it's a,

it's a, it's a symbol of liberation.

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Wow.

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That, you know, here we are liberated.

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So if you just, you know, Google it,

Elga, E-L-Y-A-N-G-A, you will see, oh

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wow, this is, and it says it clearly there

though, that, you know, this is, this

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is a, this, were Africans who came here,

you know, and basically we are teaching

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us on and working with us in terms of,

uh, freedom, equality, justice, and um.

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There's still a very large population

of African people down there today.

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You know, um, I mean, we think about it.

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There's more Africans other

than the continent in Brazil.

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That's you get more African people.

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Like, so, so, I mean,

go for the, you know,

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Tony Tidbit: you make a good point.

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I mean, you got, you had

Cuban Africans, right?

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You had, you know, so to your point, you

never think about it until you said it.

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And it makes, it makes total sense.

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So we're, we're definitely going

to dive into the, the Southern

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hemisphere in terms of, you know,

the African history and population.

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But right now we're gonna, we're

gonna, we're gonna keep it North.

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And, uh, we're gonna, we're

gonna definitely go East.

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Okay.

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I mean, definitely, you know, and

look, you, you already started

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providing this history before we even

got through the warmup questions,

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Chris P. Reed: right?

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Came out the gate, man.

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Tony Tidbit: Classroom

classroom mentality.

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I love it.

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I love it.

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We getting, we getting a bang for

our buck here, Chris, don't we?

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Absolutely.

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Dr. Niyi Coker: Absolutely.

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But Dr.

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Tony Tidbit: Coker, listen, let's, uh,

we already, you ready to talk about,

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cause I want to, me and Chris got a

bunch of stuff we want to ask you.

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So are you ready to talk

about it, my friend?

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Oh

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Dr. Niyi Coker: yeah.

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Okay.

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Sure.

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Let's talk

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Tony Tidbit: about it, my brother.

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So listen, one of the things that in

your bio Chris spoke about is, you

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know, you, you Which you sent to me

and I watch, uh, and it was, it was,

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it was, uh, it was interesting to watch

was the film that you, the documentary

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you put together on Ota B, I mean,

you produced it, you directed it.

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So before we jump into it, I want

to play a quick little clip of that

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documentary so everybody can hear.

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Then I'd love to hear your thoughts

and we can learn more about Ota Benga.

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Narrator: Sure.

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Thanks.

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At the turn of the 20th century, a man

named Ota Benga was displayed at the

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Bronx Zoo with monkeys and chimpanzees.

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He was an African housed at the zoo

as living proof of an inferior race.

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A hundred years after this bizarre

event, we can look back now and

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ponder how it came to be that.

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In the United States, a human being

was actually housed with primates.

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Several argued then, as some

would today, that such an action

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has nothing to do with race.

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You be the judge.

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Tony Tidbit: I mean, that is, so

number one, that is, it's moving.

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It's it's so powerful when I watched it

and I had to stop to be to be honest,

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as I was going through it, I had to,

you know, I don't say turn it off.

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I just had to pause it for a

little bit just to to marinate.

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This is this is not in 1700s or, you

know, in the early: 1800

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This is the early 1900s.

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And so number one, I want to thank

you for bringing this story to life.

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Obviously you've gotten accolades

for this story, but my first question

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is what made you want to, you

know, do this story on Ota Benga?

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Dr. Niyi Coker: Uh, I used to live in

Birmingham, Alabama, and, um, when I was

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teaching at the University of Alabama and

director of their program of the African

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American Studies, uh, school there.

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And I moved to St.

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Louis in two thousand and, uh, five.

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And, um, I moved very early in the

summers, you know, so that I could,

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you know, be ready to start school.

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And in that period of time, what I did

was I, you know, as you usually do, get

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to know your city, and I went to the St.

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Louis Arts, uh, the St.

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Louis Historical Museum,

just to, you know, because

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here's the land of Dred Scott.

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Tony Tidbit: Right, right, that

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Dr. Niyi Coker: says, Hey, man, you

know, you can't, you're not free anymore.

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Okay, we're neutral.

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And, you know, so, so Missouri started to

really, I mean, you know, I was excited

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and intrigued about, you know, uncovering

and going to some of those landmarks.

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And unbeknownst to me, um, just

going to the, uh, uh, his St.

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Louis historical museum.

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Um, I thought I was just going

to be seeing stuff on Dred

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Scott, et cetera, et cetera.

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And I saw this large photograph and

it was a photograph of a man, um, an

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African, um, a man of African descent

housed in a loincloth carrying, um, um,

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um, um, an orangutan on his shoulder.

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And it said, you know, Ota Benga, St.

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Louis Walls Fair, 1905.

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And I thought.

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Something is not adding up here.

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That's a name, St.

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Louis Worlds Fair 05.

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So I started to dig more into the St.

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Louis Worlds Fair and what,

um, the presence of this

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African was doing at the St.

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Louis World's Fair, because it had

other photographs of the World's Fair.

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It had people like Geronimo.

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It had, you know, the Igorots.

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It had native peoples.

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It had people from the Philippines.

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And, and, um, I grew to understand that

the Walls Fair basically was what you

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might call the beginning of in 1905.

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World's Fair was always, um, um,

places where people would come.

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Back then, before the days of the

internet to like an expose, right?

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The Wall Street people discovered ice.

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Right, right.

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See what's going on in

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Tony Tidbit: the world.

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It would come.

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It will be there.

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Dr. Niyi Coker: Educate themselves.

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But this particular World's Fair, there

was a guy, um, whose name is McGee, Dr.

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McGee.

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And who's known as the one of the

founders of the American Anthropological

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Association, so basically it's an

anthropologist, and this field of

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anthropology was just beginning to

fire it, fire up, and, um, what McGee

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wanted at that point was he wanted at

that World's Fair to have, you know,

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Every possible human represented in the

globe at the World's Fair, he wanted

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representation because this was going

to be the place where they were going

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to study, um, humanity, study cultures

and to see, you know, the goal was to

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see who was the most sophisticated,

you know, to create a chart.

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To see who's the most, which are

the most sophisticated races and

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the most inferior of all the races.

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And, um, so he commissioned a

guy named Werner at this point.

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This is the documentary.

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He said, okay, look, I've got

Geronimo, I got Indians, I got this,

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I got that, but now we need Africans.

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We need, you know, so although enslavement

as we know it had ended, he commissioned,

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um, He commissioned Werner to go to Africa

and go and bring him some, some pygmies,

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some, you know, Batuar and people from

the heart of Africa, from the Congo.

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So Werner, you know, buys a license

basically, uh, uh, you know,

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because at that point in the U.

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S.

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A.

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the only way you could go is

if you were in the church.

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So he buys a license, seminary license

in, you know, a day, what takes people

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four or five years or a year to get, he,

you know, got it in a day or two and he,

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you know, made his way to, stopped in

Belgium, met with Leopold, uh, uh, because

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Leopold at that time, you know, ruled,

owned the Congo, which is called Congo

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Leopoldville, and, um, he got permission

to just go kidnap and bring Africans over.

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So I think he was asked to go

bring 20 something and he only

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got three or four or five.

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And, um, what he did was he went

there, he, uh, and met with the Belgian

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first public, which is the police.

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And they, at that point had arrested a

group of Africans who had attacked them,

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uh, because they had burned down the

village of these Africans and murdered

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all their women and babies and all that.

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Those one, those Africans

came to attack the public and,

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uh, the public arrested them.

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And among them was this

guy named Ota benga.

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And so he brought Ota.

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Benga, you know, to the

USA and brought him to St.

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Louis, to the World's Fair.

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And so this is all in the documentary.

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And what is beautiful about

the documentary is the

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coincidental part of it.

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It took about 10 years to make.

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Because each time I was working on that,

I thought, okay, it's almost there.

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Something else would reveal itself.

301

: 00:16:07

Like, you know, I was working on it

at a point and it just so revealed

302

: 00:16:11

itself that in Paris at the place

called Museum Brulé, they were actually

303

: 00:16:15

showing the Wall Street exhibit.

304

: 00:16:18

They, somebody was able

to take a camera there.

305

: 00:16:20

And so they were showing it

in Paris at Museum Brulé.

306

: 00:16:23

So I had to head up there quickly

to, you know, see it for myself

307

: 00:16:27

and see if I could, you know,

uh, buy clips or borrow clips.

308

: 00:16:31

Basically the bar vein of the story,

she brought out a banger to, um,

309

: 00:16:36

the World's fair to be displayed.

310

: 00:16:38

And, uh, in that display, of

course they said, Oh, okay.

311

: 00:16:41

You know, Africans then are the

lowest people on the totem pole.

312

: 00:16:45

And of course, you know, the people

who are backwards in Africa, you

313

: 00:16:49

have the tallest people in the Sudan.

314

: 00:16:51

You have the, Smallest people in the

Congo, so he brought small people

315

: 00:16:56

basically and said, Oh, well, don't

you see how they look like, you know,

316

: 00:17:00

chimpanzees and monkeys and the New

York Times actually, you know, wrote

317

: 00:17:04

stories praising it to say, Oh,

yeah, this Africans are the closest

318

: 00:17:07

things to monkeys and chimpanzees.

319

: 00:17:09

And, you know, and basically, at

the end of the walls there, he, um.

320

: 00:17:13

He took him to the Bronx Zoo.

321

: 00:17:15

Mm-Hmm.

322

: 00:17:15

. And, you know, basically, you know, got

some money from him for him at the Bronx

323

: 00:17:19

Zoo and, uh, the, uh, director of the

Bronx Zoo put him in the, in the cage,

324

: 00:17:24

you know, with the monkeys and, uh,

the, the, the, the, the chimpanzees to.

325

: 00:17:28

You know, so that people could come and

watch and pay money and, um, you know, and

326

: 00:17:36

in the backdrop of this, we, I, we should

always remember that in the backdrop of

327

: 00:17:41

this Darwin had just written less than

20 years, the evolution of the species.

328

: 00:17:46

The evolution of the species talks about,

uh, basically it's theory breakdown

329

: 00:17:51

theories that there's really nothing

like creation, that God created human

330

: 00:17:55

beings and all that, and that we've all

evolved, you know, evolution through

331

: 00:18:00

evolution is how we've all become

human beings, et cetera, et cetera.

332

: 00:18:04

So, um, and again, I want us to remember

that against this backdrop, Africans

333

: 00:18:09

had just 1876, 18, so, you know, the,

the, uh, the civil war had just ended

334

: 00:18:15

and, you know, um, Abraham Lincoln in

Abraham Lincoln in court had just freed

335

: 00:18:22

the enslaved people and Congress, the U.

336

: 00:18:24

S.

337

: 00:18:24

Congress was still wondering.

338

: 00:18:26

What to do with these people who are

now roaming free and, you know, are they

339

: 00:18:32

human beings or are they one thirds of a

340

: 00:18:34

Chris P. Reed: person?

341

: 00:18:35

Dr. Niyi Coker: And of course, you know,

we all know how that ends up in the

342

: 00:18:38

Constitution as a, you know, being a

third of a person and not a human being.

343

: 00:18:42

In that background, also, you have

scientists who are beginning to

344

: 00:18:46

study these people, this strange

People of African being, uh, African

345

: 00:18:51

origin and looking at their brains

craniologically to determine whether

346

: 00:18:56

or not they could fly an airplane.

347

: 00:18:57

Tony Tidbit: So can you stop right there?

348

: 00:18:59

Because I, I read that.

349

: 00:19:01

All right.

350

: 00:19:02

And most people don't know that.

351

: 00:19:04

And they use that, that, that science

or lack thereof, I should say, to,

352

: 00:19:10

to, to speak against Tuskegee Airmen.

353

: 00:19:14

All right.

354

: 00:19:14

And one of the reasons why

they didn't want blacks to fly.

355

: 00:19:18

Because at the end of the day, when

they get up in the altitude too

356

: 00:19:21

high, their brains are too small.

357

: 00:19:23

Then they lose oxygen

and then they pass out.

358

: 00:19:26

All right.

359

: 00:19:26

And this was, and this was

supposed of a scientific theory.

360

: 00:19:30

It was science that was like

proven, which made no sense.

361

: 00:19:34

So I'm sorry to interrupt you,

but I remember, I remember reading

362

: 00:19:38

that and I couldn't believe it.

363

: 00:19:39

And and that was one of

the things that they used.

364

: 00:19:44

To stop black people from flying and it

wasn't for Eleanor Roosevelt, you know,

365

: 00:19:48

we don't know where that would have went.

366

: 00:19:49

Yeah.

367

: 00:19:50

Dr. Niyi Coker: Yeah.

368

: 00:19:51

Yeah.

369

: 00:19:51

No, you, you, you, you're absolutely

correct because this, you see

370

: 00:19:54

when people talk about race or

racism and a lack of equity.

371

: 00:19:59

Uh, what people don't understand or

realize is that this was baked into the

372

: 00:20:06

ingredients of the system, where what

begins to happen then is rather than

373

: 00:20:11

studying, you know, you have your med,

people go to med school, people go to

374

: 00:20:15

vet school to become veterinarians,

you had people who were studying slave

375

: 00:20:19

medicine, which is basically, you know,

how do you treat, because it's not a

376

: 00:20:24

human being, this is a property and

it's a slave, how do you treat them?

377

: 00:20:28

You can't give them the same

medicinal, you know, Prescriptions

378

: 00:20:33

that you would give a white person.

379

: 00:20:35

So they was it was

different specialization.

380

: 00:20:38

So, um, or Ota Benga basically

ended up at that zoo.

381

: 00:20:41

People came to the zoo to watch

a lot of scientists, you know,

382

: 00:20:45

basically based their science on it.

383

: 00:20:47

Theologians based their theology on it.

384

: 00:20:50

Um, people who wrote stories

about African, African people

385

: 00:20:53

based their, you know, literature

and the literary theories on it.

386

: 00:20:56

The U.

387

: 00:20:57

S.

388

: 00:20:57

Congress basically, you know, hired.

389

: 00:21:00

A guy named, um, Dr.

390

: 00:21:02

Agassiz, who was from a university in

Switzerland, and another guy named Dr.

391

: 00:21:05

Martin, who was at Harvard University,

and said, you know, help us study

392

: 00:21:09

this folk and come up with something

and, and educate us about if they're

393

: 00:21:14

human beings and what they're

capable of doing or not doing.

394

: 00:21:17

Um, again, we don't forget that, um,

you know, Thomas Jefferson, you know,

395

: 00:21:21

had written his notes on Virginia, that

the highest intellectual capability

396

: 00:21:26

basically of anybody of African descent.

397

: 00:21:29

The highest intellectual capability would

be that of a 10 year old white child, you

398

: 00:21:35

know, um, so all this again, basically

is coming from voices of authority.

399

: 00:21:42

And, um, so Ota Benga was there,

people went to the zoo, they saw him

400

: 00:21:47

at the zoo, um, paid a lot of money.

401

: 00:21:50

The Bronx Zoo made a lot of money.

402

: 00:21:52

The, uh, pastors and people

in churches, especially black

403

: 00:21:55

pastors, um, were in a revolt and

wanted him removed from the zoo.

404

: 00:22:01

Um, if you look at the Bronx Zoos,

um, in terms of accounting, how much

405

: 00:22:06

income they've made, the highest

income the Bronx Zoo has ever made, and

406

: 00:22:10

has never beaten that record, was 2.

407

: 00:22:12

While Ota Benga was at the zoo, because

now basically what it meant for the

408

: 00:22:17

public was, you know, you've been told

you're created by there's God and there's,

409

: 00:22:22

you know, Adam and Eve, and here you

have proof before your eyes at the zoo

410

: 00:22:28

about evolution, which is what they

were saying that, okay, man, ape, that's

411

: 00:22:33

the closest link, closest relatives

to the apes is this human beings, but

412

: 00:22:37

they Africans and they're black people.

413

: 00:22:40

And, um, it, it begins to ingrain.

414

: 00:22:43

You know, um, um, a racist

trope of thinking and, and, and,

415

: 00:22:49

and, and false, very false, but

then, but go ahead and go ahead.

416

: 00:22:53

Dr.

417

: 00:22:53

Coker.

418

: 00:22:54

Yeah.

419

: 00:22:55

So, so basically, you know, they got him

out of the zoo and ironically, sadly, I

420

: 00:23:00

mean, the best place they took him to the

Virginia theological seminary at a place

421

: 00:23:04

called Lynchburg, Virginia, which, um,

to turn him into, you know, a Christian

422

: 00:23:10

and, you know, Christianize him and

stabilize him and educate him, you know,

423

: 00:23:14

and so the irony for, again, there is

that in the attempt to, in quote, give him

424

: 00:23:20

freedom, they, you know, They were locking

him into another kind of enslavement.

425

: 00:23:25

I mean, I'm not casting aspersions

on anybody's religion, please,

426

: 00:23:29

but was to make him a Christian.

427

: 00:23:32

You know, which would then make him

human is to Christianize him, you

428

: 00:23:36

know, and, you know, basically he

didn't have a religion or religious

429

: 00:23:41

belief where he was coming from, right.

430

: 00:23:43

Um, you know, uh, so, so

they said he took his life.

431

: 00:23:48

I said, they said, because I

couldn't find any evidence that

432

: 00:23:52

he did or that he didn't, right.

433

: 00:23:55

The 10 years of the work, um, and

we don't know where he's buried.

434

: 00:23:58

Um, which again is another tragedy

in the situation because the moment

435

: 00:24:05

news of his death came out, um, there

were actually people as far as, you

436

: 00:24:10

know, Amsterdam, London, France,

Belgium, that were already beating him.

437

: 00:24:15

To have his remains, his corpse,

because they needed to take it and

438

: 00:24:19

study it and all that, you know,

439

: 00:24:21

Tony Tidbit: let me ask you this,

um, and, and I, and Chris, I know

440

: 00:24:24

you know, you loaded up, um, and

I got, I mean, we can just, to be

441

: 00:24:29

honest, man, we could talk about

this for the next hour or two, right?

442

: 00:24:32

Because I got a million questions.

443

: 00:24:34

Okay.

444

: 00:24:35

Um, but I'm going to,

so let me ask you this.

445

: 00:24:37

Why isn't this story more

known in the United States?

446

: 00:24:44

Dr. Niyi Coker: Um, because the

curriculum is Euro centered.

447

: 00:24:49

Um, the curriculum in many ways, in all

ways, actually, not in many ways, the

448

: 00:24:54

curriculum is a major problem, and the

more that we begin to have this, um,

449

: 00:25:00

this situation where, uh, critical race

is being, you know, questioned and, you

450

: 00:25:07

know, writers like Angelo and Morrison

are being stricken off, uh, or Mollifia

451

: 00:25:12

Santi are being taken off, uh, Um,

school curriculums in public schools.

452

: 00:25:18

Um, what it does basically is it

continues this Ota Benga syndrome where,

453

: 00:25:24

you know, anything that has to do with

either accomplishment Or that negates

454

: 00:25:30

and shows the felicity or the falseness

of falsehoods of enslavement and that

455

: 00:25:38

this people you enslave were human

beings that you took out of a continent.

456

: 00:25:45

And you condition people into believing

that they were less than human.

457

: 00:25:50

You don't want those

facts in the textbooks.

458

: 00:25:54

Uh, you know, uh, you don't want to

put that in the textbooks because,

459

: 00:25:58

um, basically it keeps a hegemonic,

uh, uh, control in many ways.

460

: 00:26:04

It keeps the Eurocentric part of the

curriculum strong because if that were

461

: 00:26:09

in textbooks today and had been in

textbooks very fairly, I think it would.

462

: 00:26:15

The rate of failure or the rate of dropout

or dropout rate in the, especially in

463

: 00:26:23

the African American community would

be much lower because what you do then

464

: 00:26:29

is children begin to understand the

truth and the facts and not feel that

465

: 00:26:36

there is anything negative about them

or their being and their existence.

466

: 00:26:40

Yes,

467

: 00:26:41

Tony Tidbit: it's about,

468

: 00:26:41

Dr. Niyi Coker: you know, and

it's also good for not just the

469

: 00:26:44

children of African descent, but

the children of, European descent to

470

: 00:26:48

understand not to make the mistakes.

471

: 00:26:50

Number one.

472

: 00:26:52

And number two, to begin to come to see,

um, you know, all the races as being

473

: 00:27:00

just as human and wanted the same things.

474

: 00:27:03

And I bet you, you know, um, Du

Bois talked about, you know, the,

475

: 00:27:09

uh, the fact that the race war risk

issues in the USA in: 1905

476

: 00:27:15

Said he would follow us to

the end of the 20th century.

477

: 00:27:18

He wrote that in the Souls of Black Folk

in: 1903

478

: 00:27:23

us to the end of the 20th century.

479

: 00:27:25

We're in 2024 right now.

480

: 00:27:27

We're still dealing with

it in the 21st century.

481

: 00:27:30

And I don't, we don't see it going away.

482

: 00:27:32

No, well, especially

483

: 00:27:34

Tony Tidbit: if you're, if you're trying

to, well, not trying, you're hiding

484

: 00:27:37

and you won't, uh, Self accountable.

485

: 00:27:40

Um, Chris, any, cause I don't want

to dominate here because I know

486

: 00:27:43

you may have a couple of questions.

487

: 00:27:44

That's cool.

488

: 00:27:45

Yeah.

489

: 00:27:45

No, you're good.

490

: 00:27:46

Chris P. Reed: So, so obviously I'm, I'm.

491

: 00:27:48

Go ahead, buddy.

492

: 00:27:49

Tony Tidbit: Go

493

: 00:27:49

Chris P. Reed: ahead.

494

: 00:27:49

Yeah.

495

: 00:27:49

Tony Tidbit: Go ahead.

496

: 00:27:50

Chris P. Reed: Yeah.

497

: 00:27:50

Yeah.

498

: 00:27:51

So obviously, and you guys know this

from the political landscape that we live

499

: 00:27:55

in now, confirmation bias is very real.

500

: 00:27:58

And once you tell yourself something,

you're bound and determined to do

501

: 00:28:01

everything you can to reinforce

whatever you started with.

502

: 00:28:04

As opposed to being nimble and opposed

to being agile in your thought.

503

: 00:28:07

My question for you is beyond the, and I,

beyond the physical or observational, uh,

504

: 00:28:15

understanding of this man is this size.

505

: 00:28:17

And this man is this color, this

pigmentation and, and whatever the case

506

: 00:28:21

may be, was there any other science that

you found to be associated with their

507

: 00:28:26

learnings or what they're calling science?

508

: 00:28:27

Because I, I find it to be.

509

: 00:28:29

Disrespectful to keep saying

science when no science was

510

: 00:28:32

really being performed, right?

511

: 00:28:34

There was no real science that was

Extracted here and it so it's just and I

512

: 00:28:38

think that if we continue to perpetuate

that by using that word we water down the

513

: 00:28:42

actual Situation as it was constructed

where they kidnapped this person held

514

: 00:28:47

them against their will and then demonized

him physically Only to try to elevate

515

: 00:28:51

him spiritually, which is contradiction

in itself But i'll ask you that question

516

: 00:28:55

what science was being really used

517

: 00:28:59

Dr. Niyi Coker: He was A science,

there's a saying among, a lot of

518

: 00:29:04

people say, have it now in the world.

519

: 00:29:06

The day, the day lions begin

to tell their own stories,

520

: 00:29:15

a lot of hunters are not going

to have tales of bravery anymore.

521

: 00:29:20

So the science that was used was the

science that was, you know, uh, uh, that

522

: 00:29:25

was, um, uh, basically formulated by.

523

: 00:29:31

Folks who already knew the destination

in which they wanted to go.

524

: 00:29:35

And

525

: 00:29:35

Tony Tidbit: that's it.

526

: 00:29:35

Dr. Niyi Coker: And that's it.

527

: 00:29:37

You know, I mean, it's

like the word objectivity.

528

: 00:29:40

Oh, no, no.

529

: 00:29:40

We're just being objective.

530

: 00:29:42

Tony Tidbit: You're not being objective.

531

: 00:29:43

If you already have a bias,

you already have a bias, right?

532

: 00:29:46

So you're just going to find

what you want to find anyway.

533

: 00:29:49

So you don't make it come out to

where you want it to come out.

534

: 00:29:52

Dr. Niyi Coker: That's it.

535

: 00:29:53

That's it.

536

: 00:29:54

I mean, so,

537

: 00:29:54

so

538

: 00:29:56

it's funny because I mean, when you say

the, um, the science it's, we're in a

539

: 00:30:01

trap situation, we're in a trap, you

know, we're in a linguistic trap because

540

: 00:30:06

basically a lot of the, um, my, my mentor

would say, you know, um, if you look

541

: 00:30:12

around you, you know, Um, you look up,

you go, that's Mars, that's Pluto, that's

542

: 00:30:17

Jupiter, that's Uranus, who named it that?

543

: 00:30:22

But you referring to, we

all refer to it as that.

544

: 00:30:25

I mean, we're communicating

based on all of us, three, three

545

: 00:30:28

of us here of African descent.

546

: 00:30:30

We're communicating in a language

that's basically not ours.

547

: 00:30:34

Chris P. Reed: Correct.

548

: 00:30:35

Dr. Niyi Coker: And so the, The viewpoint

or the lens in which that what science

549

: 00:30:43

is then described is from the lens of

the language in which we're speaking

550

: 00:30:48

and the lens of the language in which

we're speaking is one that went out to

551

: 00:30:51

colonize and dominate and Christianize.

552

: 00:30:54

And so, you know, that language then

is not is the language that we're

553

: 00:30:59

trapped in and we used to, you know,

we use that language in saying,

554

: 00:31:04

okay, you know, that's the far east.

555

: 00:31:06

That's the Middle East.

556

: 00:31:08

Far to who, middle of where, you know,

far from who, you know, I mean, so, so,

557

: 00:31:13

so, so basically, um, even on the maps,

you know, um, you gotta look at the fact

558

: 00:31:19

that, you know, we're in a containment

and until we liberate our language, which

559

: 00:31:25

is, you know, like my, you know, um, um,

Uh, mentor would always, you know, say

560

: 00:31:30

to me says, you know, when you go back

and you think you think about liberating

561

: 00:31:33

language and when you liberate your

language, you liberate your thinking,

562

: 00:31:37

you know, I mean, you know, words like,

you know, tribe, you know, he would

563

: 00:31:42

say, you know, I mean, who's a tribe?

564

: 00:31:45

What's a tribe?

565

: 00:31:46

You know, um, you'll find it's

only people of color for, you know,

566

: 00:31:50

either native American or African

descent that that tribes people,

567

: 00:31:54

um, you know, all the people are

nations or ethnic groups, you know,

568

: 00:31:59

Chris P. Reed: right.

569

: 00:31:59

So,

570

: 00:32:00

Dr. Niyi Coker: um, yeah.

571

: 00:32:01

So, so again, it's the language.

572

: 00:32:02

So that's the, with the science, science,

573

: 00:32:07

Chris P. Reed: right.

574

: 00:32:07

I think that, I think that, you know,

you touched on something that reminded

575

: 00:32:10

me of a previous episode where we

talked about, uh, the fact that we

576

: 00:32:14

were brought over here and deemed.

577

: 00:32:16

Unintelligent or, or inoperable

from a mental perspective because

578

: 00:32:20

of the language difference.

579

: 00:32:22

We were smart and we were great

where we were and we spoke

580

: 00:32:25

what we spoke where we were.

581

: 00:32:26

And then we came here and it wasn't

the King's English, so to speak.

582

: 00:32:30

And therefore we weren't right.

583

: 00:32:32

All of a sudden they use

language as a weapon.

584

: 00:32:36

Dr. Niyi Coker: But the other thing is

we were multilingual and we continue

585

: 00:32:39

to be multilingual on most, you know,

uh, uh, you know, uh, places where

586

: 00:32:44

you have people of African descent

and so to say, Oh no, they not bright.

587

: 00:32:48

And, but you know, Just, just, just listen

to this one and just, you know, see how,

588

: 00:32:56

um, uh, how tilted this whole thing is.

589

: 00:33:03

If you go to Liverpool Museum,

where Liverpool Museum holds the

590

: 00:33:08

records of people that were brought

in, in terms of enslavement, where

591

: 00:33:12

the ships would be basically, the

ships had to come into Liverpool.

592

: 00:33:17

Download their stock, see who's on

it, who's off it, how many people, and

593

: 00:33:21

this is where the insurance company

would pay if there were losses of

594

: 00:33:24

people or loss of cargo, and then the

ships then would continue to the U.

595

: 00:33:28

S., to the new world, in quotes.

596

: 00:33:31

So, there was always a request for rice

farmers, or people who were skilled in

597

: 00:33:36

farming, and there was a certain part

of Africa, you know, Sierra Leone today.

598

: 00:33:42

Which they would go to, to bring

these people and those people who

599

: 00:33:46

had the skills in rice farming, et

cetera, would always end up in St.

600

: 00:33:50

Helena's Island, what you call the

Gullah Islands off of South Carolina,

601

: 00:33:55

you know, the Gullah, the Geechee,

because they already had the skill.

602

: 00:34:00

of planting rice.

603

: 00:34:01

They had a skill.

604

: 00:34:03

So it wasn't that people with

zero skills were being brought.

605

: 00:34:07

People at that point understood that,

look, what I'm planting is rice.

606

: 00:34:12

I need people who do rice.

607

: 00:34:13

So go bring them and bring

them, dump them here.

608

: 00:34:17

And so they, so to sell, no, they didn't

have skill or they didn't have knowledge.

609

: 00:34:23

Everybody knew that was, if you knew

they didn't have skill or knowledge,

610

: 00:34:26

why would you bring them over here?

611

: 00:34:28

Why would you bring them over here?

612

: 00:34:29

But that would, but you

613

: 00:34:30

Tony Tidbit: had to create that narrative.

614

: 00:34:32

Okay.

615

: 00:34:33

Of course.

616

: 00:34:33

So to be able to, to, you

know, basically confirm.

617

: 00:34:38

Right.

618

: 00:34:38

Um, what you were doing.

619

: 00:34:40

Okay.

620

: 00:34:41

But at the end of the day, you don't bring

over anybody who doesn't have any skill.

621

: 00:34:45

And the next thing you

know, you're getting, making

622

: 00:34:47

billions of dollars of cotton.

623

: 00:34:49

All right.

624

: 00:34:49

Yeah.

625

: 00:34:49

You taught him.

626

: 00:34:51

That doesn't make any sense.

627

: 00:34:52

Hey,

628

: 00:34:53

Dr. Niyi Coker: yeah.

629

: 00:34:54

And that narrative is so easy to create.

630

: 00:34:57

Um, in the sense that, I mean,

we just saw one, you know, where,

631

: 00:35:01

you know, we all believe that Iraq

and Saddam Hussein had a bomb.

632

: 00:35:05

Yeah.

633

: 00:35:07

We all believed it.

634

: 00:35:08

I mean, come on now, let's be

on the weapons, the weapons,

635

: 00:35:11

Chris P. Reed: the mass

636

: 00:35:12

Dr. Niyi Coker: destruction, weapons,

the mass destruction, you know, and

637

: 00:35:16

at the end of it, it was like, okay,

well, no, we didn't find anything.

638

: 00:35:20

Everybody believed it.

639

: 00:35:21

The world believed it because it was a

narrative that was so, so it's very easy

640

: 00:35:25

to put out a narrative that's not true

and make everybody believe, oh, you know,

641

: 00:35:30

this is, you know, so it was the same that

happened with people of African descent.

642

: 00:35:34

You know, these people are barbaric.

643

: 00:35:37

These people are, you know, savages.

644

: 00:35:39

These people are not Christian.

645

: 00:35:41

We're gonna Christianize them and Okay.

646

: 00:35:44

All right, you end up Christianizing

them and you get the black churches

647

: 00:35:47

springing up all over the South.

648

: 00:35:49

Did that mean freedom?

649

: 00:35:51

Now they're Christianized.

650

: 00:35:52

Right.

651

: 00:35:53

That's all.

652

: 00:35:54

Oh, you're Christian now.

653

: 00:35:55

Okay.

654

: 00:35:55

Now you could go, you know, it,

it became property became, you

655

: 00:35:59

know, it was about the money.

656

: 00:36:00

Wasn't about Christianization

or civilization, you know,

657

: 00:36:04

Chris P. Reed: absolutely.

658

: 00:36:05

Dr. Niyi Coker: You know, you

wouldn't have on, on, on tutored

659

: 00:36:08

people raising your kids.

660

: 00:36:11

Because basically these were the people

who went into the homes to raise the

661

: 00:36:15

kids and take care of the elderly and,

you know, do what, you know, nurturing

662

: 00:36:21

is about, you know, of raising other

people where, you know, we all read, we've

663

: 00:36:26

read all kinds of, you know, literary

works, you know, that talk about how a

664

: 00:36:31

lot of the, um, um, Children of European

descent in the South were closer to

665

: 00:36:36

the maid, you know, the house maids and

women, African women that raise them.

666

: 00:36:43

Tony Tidbit: Absolutely,

667

: 00:36:44

Dr. Niyi Coker: biological

parents, you know, absolutely.

668

: 00:36:47

Chris P. Reed: I think that you

669

: 00:36:48

Dr. Niyi Coker: would dump

670

: 00:36:50

Chris P. Reed: it.

671

: 00:36:51

I think the concept of.

672

: 00:36:54

Needing to civilize the savages has been

used over and over again, not just with

673

: 00:36:59

us, but with many different people with

native Americans, everybody's a savage.

674

: 00:37:03

You know, like I said, if you're a

hammer, everything looks like a nail.

675

: 00:37:06

Right?

676

: 00:37:06

So everybody's a savage.

677

: 00:37:08

And we're talking about Christianizing and

changing, uh, their religious beliefs in

678

: 00:37:12

order to save them, uh, save their souls.

679

: 00:37:14

Right?

680

: 00:37:14

So saving souls, but the concept of, yeah.

681

: 00:37:18

Uh, you have these savages that

you are trying to make into

682

: 00:37:23

civil, uh, human beings, but

then you treat them uncivilized.

683

: 00:37:29

How do, how do, how can that

be reconciled at any point?

684

: 00:37:32

Like how does that work, especially

when we talk about the role of

685

: 00:37:34

religions and things of that nature?

686

: 00:37:37

Dr. Niyi Coker: Um, in terms of religion,

um, again, I don't want to cast as

687

: 00:37:42

precious, but I, I think religion

is an, is a tool and an illusion

688

: 00:37:47

that's been used in deceiving people.

689

: 00:37:50

a lot of people around the world.

690

: 00:37:53

And, um, religion again has been used

for gain, for profit, um, to justify

691

: 00:38:01

the bringing of enslaved people

and say, you know, you had to be a

692

: 00:38:06

member of the church to go do that.

693

: 00:38:08

Um, if you ever go to, um, Cape

Coast, which is one of the forts

694

: 00:38:13

where Africans were enslaved, I

mean, it will bring shivers down your

695

: 00:38:17

spine if you look at those forts.

696

: 00:38:20

Um, at the top of those forts

in a place called Cape Coast

697

: 00:38:24

and another one called Elmina.

698

: 00:38:27

Cape Coast actually Barack has

Barack Obama plaque because he

699

: 00:38:30

and Michelle visited, had to visit

Cape Coast while he was president.

700

: 00:38:33

Um, if you look at those forts and

the dungeons where the African people

701

: 00:38:38

were held while they were waiting for

the ships to come back, there's stairs

702

: 00:38:43

that go up to the top of the dungeon.

703

: 00:38:46

Those stairs lead to church.

704

: 00:38:49

So there was a church on top of a dungeon.

705

: 00:38:52

That held enslaved people.

706

: 00:38:54

They held the women separate from the

men on the women's side of the dungeon.

707

: 00:39:01

In Cape Coast and Elmina, there is a door

that leads to the room of the priests.

708

: 00:39:08

And, you know, so basically

they were abusing, sexually

709

: 00:39:13

abusing the women at their whim.

710

: 00:39:15

You know, while they were out

there, they would basically

711

: 00:39:18

just take whoever they wanted.

712

: 00:39:20

And, um, but again, this was the church.

713

: 00:39:24

Um, and so you see that and you say,

wow, and they were holding services here.

714

: 00:39:29

And basically the bedrooms to all the

priests bedrooms had access to the

715

: 00:39:35

chambers where the women were held.

716

: 00:39:38

And you begin to reconcile

it and go, wait a minute.

717

: 00:39:42

And the, uh, the, the exploration

in Africa was to CCC, triple C,

718

: 00:39:48

Christianize, colonize, and civilize.

719

: 00:39:52

Was the aim basically was why they said

they were in Africa and at the end of it

720

: 00:39:56

all it became a land grab Because they

had to sit down in Belgium and decide.

721

: 00:40:00

Okay, let's cut the place up,

you know, and you know Stanley or

722

: 00:40:05

whatever decided a listen Leopold.

723

: 00:40:08

I will be the referee but before I

referee the Breaking up of the place.

724

: 00:40:13

I have to take land five times or 10

times as large as Belgium and the red

725

: 00:40:18

round in the middle and he took that and

then he decided, British, you take that

726

: 00:40:22

Frank, you take that Germany, you take

that Italy, you take that, you know,

727

: 00:40:26

so it was just divided up without even

talking to the people themselves and

728

: 00:40:31

they just went there and put the flag.

729

: 00:40:33

And again, if you've ever been to those,

I'm sorry, if you've ever been to,

730

: 00:40:37

again, those castles, Whether it's in

Senegal, Goreo, and you will find their

731

: 00:40:41

cannons, their cannon balls with cannons,

which used to be the serious weapon.

732

: 00:40:47

Back in the day, you put the

cannon and you shoot it out.

733

: 00:40:50

Why are those cannons facing the sea?

734

: 00:40:54

Why are those cannons not facing inland?

735

: 00:40:57

If the people inland are the enemy

and the people you are afraid of, the

736

: 00:41:01

cannons are facing the sea, because if

you're French and you own this colony and

737

: 00:41:07

you're getting enslaved people from it.

738

: 00:41:09

If you saw a British ship coming

toward that place, you blow it

739

: 00:41:13

out of the water because it's,

you know, it's territorial stuff.

740

: 00:41:17

The panels were no, no, the panels where

they were, you know, knew how to take care

741

: 00:41:22

of each other and say, no, no, no, you're

not going to come to my territories.

742

: 00:41:25

It's gangland stuff.

743

: 00:41:26

Right, right.

744

: 00:41:27

And so, so again, to come back to your

question of rationalization, you can't,

745

: 00:41:32

you can't defend indefensible as my mentor

would say, you can't rationalize it.

746

: 00:41:38

And that has been the major problem

to say, Oh, look, I'm sorry.

747

: 00:41:43

You know, this should not have happened.

748

: 00:41:44

How do we recompensate?

749

: 00:41:47

How do we pay, uh, you know, peer

reciprocity to make sure that, you

750

: 00:41:51

know, there's an equity playing field?

751

: 00:41:54

Um, you know, even even, you

know, 3, 000 40, 000 a mule.

752

: 00:41:59

So at least people would have

something was voted down.

753

: 00:42:04

You're free.

754

: 00:42:04

Where do you go?

755

: 00:42:07

Chris P. Reed: You were talking about

the colonization, the three C's, right?

756

: 00:42:10

And colonization.

757

: 00:42:10

I was recently looking at a theological

study on, um, what is the Middle

758

: 00:42:15

East, but used to be North Africa

until the Suez canal was built.

759

: 00:42:18

That was all North Africa.

760

: 00:42:19

Let's just be real.

761

: 00:42:20

That was all North Africa.

762

: 00:42:22

And so then they cut it up and then they

named it, whatever they want to name it.

763

: 00:42:25

And they put people here and.

764

: 00:42:27

Kick people out and all that kind

of stuff in the idea of Christianity

765

: 00:42:31

and Islam being adapted or adopted.

766

: 00:42:35

Uh, how did that transform some of the

African communities in the diaspora?

767

: 00:42:40

Dr. Niyi Coker: Uh, the

African communities in the

768

: 00:42:42

diaspora had to take on.

769

: 00:42:45

It had to take on the Africans in, uh,

let's start with, say, uh, the Africans in

770

: 00:42:52

Brazil had to take on Catholicism because

I mean, it was a Catholic church at that

771

: 00:42:57

point that was, yeah, those in, um, yeah.

772

: 00:43:01

And even though they took on Catholicism,

the one funny thing was that in taking

773

: 00:43:06

on Catholicism, they, Africanized

Catholicism in the sense that the dominant

774

: 00:43:13

religion in Brazil became Candomblé.

775

: 00:43:18

So the, the, what the Africans,

uh, uh, worship in recognize the

776

: 00:43:26

ancestors through, even though

they impose Catholicism on them

777

: 00:43:30

and say, you know, you have to have

saints, this and that's in this.

778

: 00:43:32

And this is a structure in the church.

779

: 00:43:35

They replaced those saints with,

um, what you would call the Orishas.

780

: 00:43:41

Ogun, Shongo, Yemoja, Oshun,

these were African deities.

781

: 00:43:46

So they replaced it with deities.

782

: 00:43:48

And if you go to, say, um, uh, uh,

Cuba, or any of the Spanish islands,

783

: 00:43:54

uh, Hispanic speaking islands, what

you find there is called Santa Ria.

784

: 00:43:59

Chris P. Reed: And

785

: 00:43:59

Dr. Niyi Coker: so the Santeros again,

replaced the saints with Santeros

786

: 00:44:05

would say with, with, with, um, you

know, you know, and, um, so even though

787

: 00:44:12

they were forcing them to Catholic

stuff, they took it and replaced and

788

: 00:44:16

replaced and replaced and Africanized.

789

: 00:44:19

And if you go to Haiti

or the French colonies.

790

: 00:44:22

What they have is called

Vodun, but of course Hollywood

791

: 00:44:26

has turned it into voodoo.

792

: 00:44:27

Oh, wow.

793

: 00:44:28

They would, you know, turn you

into a doll and, you know, um,

794

: 00:44:32

but it's called Vodun, you know.

795

: 00:44:34

Um, and so what a lot of Africans did,

and again, if you look at the southern

796

: 00:44:39

part of the USA, a lot of Africans who

went there, I mean, even though you

797

: 00:44:44

had Catholicism, you had Anglicans,

you had Methodists, the Africans, they

798

: 00:44:50

gravitated toward more of the Baptist.

799

: 00:44:53

To becoming Baptists and in all of

this, there's one connection and that

800

: 00:44:57

connection is water to be a Baptist.

801

: 00:45:01

You get baptized in water

and the power of water.

802

: 00:45:05

If you look at what's happening

in Cuba or in Brazil, for example,

803

: 00:45:10

the biggest date is Oshun, Oshun.

804

: 00:45:15

That's the goddess of the sea, the

oceans, you know, so water becomes a very

805

: 00:45:22

powerful symbol in all this African, you

know, uh, religions in the new world.

806

: 00:45:28

And that water is a testament

to the power of the wheel and

807

: 00:45:33

the water that the Africans came

through to come to this new place.

808

: 00:45:38

And the power of the water to purify,

the power of the water to possibly take

809

: 00:45:42

them back, and the power of the water for

those whose souls remain in that water,

810

: 00:45:47

who, you know, so, um, basically, um,

Africans, if you look at what Africans

811

: 00:45:55

have done in the new world, And you

want to really actually document it.

812

: 00:46:00

Um, you look at, for example, the

songs and the spirituals and how

813

: 00:46:06

those spirituals led to the blues

and those spirituals, you know, what

814

: 00:46:11

they've become today and, and, and

those spirituals really becoming, uh,

815

: 00:46:16

the, the aspect of the lives that saw

Africans through a difficult time.

816

: 00:46:21

And these are people you say

are not religious, you know,

817

: 00:46:24

or have those spirituality.

818

: 00:46:27

But then, you know, you look at

what, what American music is today.

819

: 00:46:30

It's really, you know, African music.

820

: 00:46:33

It's really the poly rhythms that have

come from religious practices, right?

821

: 00:46:38

Right.

822

: 00:46:38

That have created the basis of what it

is that we are seeing today, you know?

823

: 00:46:44

Um, so yeah, in terms of that

religiosity, what we've done with

824

: 00:46:49

it is not just as African people,

not just take it and accept it.

825

: 00:46:52

And I mean, if you go to a, a,

a predominantly white church and

826

: 00:46:56

you go to a black church, I mean,

you go get the Holy Ghost in one.

827

: 00:47:00

You're going to have so much

singing that people, you know,

828

: 00:47:04

um, going to trance and dance, you

know, to be late, you sing loud.

829

: 00:47:09

So the spirits come down.

830

: 00:47:11

Tony Tidbit: So let me, so Dr.

831

: 00:47:12

Coker, let me ask you this.

832

: 00:47:13

And we were talking music, right?

833

: 00:47:15

I want to go to your girl who

kept, um, somebody famous alive.

834

: 00:47:22

Okay.

835

: 00:47:22

By her music.

836

: 00:47:23

So let's

837

: 00:47:24

go here that way.

838

: 00:47:25

Can you play clip four?

839

: 00:47:27

Narrator: I was born in

a township, New Brighton.

840

: 00:47:29

It's a two roomed house.

841

: 00:47:31

We are about 11 in the family.

842

: 00:47:34

We lived about 12 kilometers to the

White Port, Elizabeth, which had all

843

: 00:47:39

the bright lights and all the beautiful

things about humanity, about normality.

844

: 00:47:45

We grew up asking questions, Why are

we living this side of the city and

845

: 00:47:50

they're living on the other side?

846

: 00:47:52

And our parents would always say,

Why You ask too many questions.

847

: 00:47:55

Now the only thing that kept us alive

or kept some form of entertainment is

848

: 00:48:00

when you had the radio and there it was.

849

: 00:48:04

Oh my God.

850

: 00:48:26

We as little boys.

851

: 00:48:28

So, Dr.

852

: 00:48:29

Coker, talk a little bit

about, you know, Miriam Makeba.

853

: 00:48:33

Um, and I love that little intro.

854

: 00:48:35

Um, and obviously he was sharing

about being in South Africa and why

855

: 00:48:39

they lived on one side of the tracks.

856

: 00:48:41

Versus somebody else and your

parents trying to protect you.

857

: 00:48:44

None of your business.

858

: 00:48:45

But at the day, that music,

uh, really inspired them.

859

: 00:48:50

And she had a message behind it.

860

: 00:48:51

So speak to that a little bit.

861

: 00:48:52

Dr. Niyi Coker: Yeah.

862

: 00:48:53

Miriam Zenzile.

863

: 00:48:55

Makeba.

864

: 00:48:56

Uh, I know as mama Z.

865

: 00:49:00

basically came to the United States

in the fifties, late fifties.

866

: 00:49:04

And, um, just around the time she

came, of course, we know what was

867

: 00:49:08

going on in South Africa, the apartheid

system of government, the past laws,

868

: 00:49:12

um, um, um, and, and Nelson Mandela

and the ANC struggling for, you

869

: 00:49:18

know, equal franchise having to be

sentenced to life on Robben Island.

870

: 00:49:25

Miriam Makeba was a singer and basically

when she came to the States, um,

871

: 00:49:30

she was, you know, was always on the

night show and, you know, co sang with

872

: 00:49:35

Harry Belafonte and, um, you know,

sang at, uh, JFK's birthday, even

873

: 00:49:41

though more people would think about

Marilyn Monroe as opposed to Miriam

874

: 00:49:45

Zenzile Makeba singing on his birthday.

875

: 00:49:47

Um, and she actually spoke at the United

Nations because she pressed, um, Uh, JFK

876

: 00:49:54

about the situation in South Africa to

say, Hey, listen, we have the situation

877

: 00:49:58

of apartheid where the black majority

in South Africa have been pushed into

878

: 00:50:03

homelands and removed from the cities.

879

: 00:50:06

And there is a segregation that's going

on in South Africa, which was, I mean,

880

: 00:50:11

the South Africans basically came to

the USA to want to study Jim Crow.

881

: 00:50:16

And then go back to South

Africa to implement it, you

882

: 00:50:19

know, on a national scale.

883

: 00:50:21

And, um, and through that, of

course, you know, um, this is why I

884

: 00:50:25

say, you know, uh, the word slavery

is not, I don't use it with kids.

885

: 00:50:30

I prefer to use the term enslavement

because there's always a, it

886

: 00:50:34

shows you there's a resistance.

887

: 00:50:36

And so the Africans did the same thing in

the sense that they created a resistance

888

: 00:50:41

against, you know, the domination.

889

: 00:50:43

In South Africa, uh, by the white

minority, um, and Mandela went

890

: 00:50:49

to prison as a result of that.

891

: 00:50:51

And Zinzi Makeba was

here when that happened.

892

: 00:50:53

So Makeba started to speak up about it.

893

: 00:50:56

To sing about it in nightclubs, to sing

about it on television shows and use

894

: 00:51:01

her national platform or international

platform to talk about Mandela.

895

: 00:51:07

And this is how the world came

to know about Mandela's plight.

896

: 00:51:11

The world at that point, there

was no internet, there was no,

897

: 00:51:14

I mean, nobody knew who Mandela

was, what was going on down there.

898

: 00:51:17

But it was this one woman, this, Powerful

female artists who made it her cause and

899

: 00:51:22

she went on and on and she met with dr

King she joined the civil rights movement

900

: 00:51:29

and you know started to understand that

even though she was in the usa It was

901

: 00:51:34

the same thing condition that people

in africans in america were suffering

902

: 00:51:38

that people in south africa Basically

africans in south africa were suffering.

903

: 00:51:43

So, um, basically, um, You She did

fall in love and marry, um, uh,

904

: 00:51:49

Kwame Toure, who, you know, Stokely

Carmichael, who was the SNCC, you know,

905

: 00:51:54

um, student, uh, president, you know,

and this caused her a lot of problems.

906

: 00:52:00

It actually cost her her career because

then nightclub stopped booking her.

907

: 00:52:04

Then record companies didn't want to

sign up to contracts because there

908

: 00:52:07

was this whole thing about she would

be taking the income from records.

909

: 00:52:12

To form the black panther party because

he was now married to a black panther.

910

: 00:52:17

She was more sympathetic.

911

: 00:52:18

To, you know, um, uh, the

black movement in the USA.

912

: 00:52:22

So why buy her records?

913

: 00:52:24

You know, so people were burning the

records in mass and white stalls and,

914

: 00:52:28

you know, um, so in that sense, it cost

her a career, you know, in, in some ways,

915

: 00:52:33

but it didn't break her down because

she continued to talk and advocate and

916

: 00:52:38

basically had to leave the USA and go

to Belgium because, um, she, um, she

917

: 00:52:44

actually moved to the Bahamas first.

918

: 00:52:46

And started, you know, a fashion

business in the Bahamas and clothing

919

: 00:52:51

stores and that kind of stuff.

920

: 00:52:53

And the Bahamian government called her

and said, Hey, look, we can't have you

921

: 00:52:56

here because we've been, we've been

visited by the IRS, the FBI, the CIA.

922

: 00:53:02

So she left and went to Belgium.

923

: 00:53:05

And then from Belgium, decided she was

going to go and, you know, stay in Guinea.

924

: 00:53:09

Because Sekou Touré, Um, you know, became

close to Kwame Ture and, you know, they,

925

: 00:53:15

you know, she moved to Guinea and it

was out of Guinea that she continued to

926

: 00:53:19

operate and sing and talk about apartheid

around the world out of the USA, you know,

927

: 00:53:25

and continue to keep the struggle going on

and, um, she lost her only child, um, as

928

: 00:53:32

a result of this, I mean, actually died.

929

: 00:53:35

She lost two grandkids.

930

: 00:53:37

Her mother died while she

was in exile because she was

931

: 00:53:40

banned from South Africa now.

932

: 00:53:42

Um, because of her being very

outspoken, she was banned from her

933

: 00:53:46

own homeland, such that when her

mother passed, um, she couldn't even

934

: 00:53:50

go give her mother the last rites.

935

: 00:53:52

She was denied, um, you know, and

so, um, but that didn't deter her.

936

: 00:53:58

She continued, you know, talking

about apartheid and singing about

937

: 00:54:02

apartheid and letting the world be

conscientized about apartheid until

938

: 00:54:07

Mandela, until it became a party.

939

: 00:54:09

Global calls.

940

: 00:54:10

I'm Mandela walked out of prison.

941

: 00:54:12

And so in many ways, people

say, you know, no black man

942

: 00:54:15

freeze themselves from prison.

943

: 00:54:18

There's always got to be some

advocates here outside help or

944

: 00:54:21

somebody pleading your case.

945

: 00:54:22

And in this case, Miriam

Makeba was that person.

946

: 00:54:26

And, um, she returned to South Africa

after Mandela got out of prison.

947

: 00:54:31

And, you know, yeah.

948

: 00:54:31

Um, but what I found in South

Africa is that they generate have

949

: 00:54:39

music, of course, was banned in

South Africa, as you can imagine.

950

: 00:54:43

And so when I went to South Africa

first, um, I think was University

951

: 00:54:48

of the North before I went to

University of the Western Cape.

952

: 00:54:50

These are historically black

schools, because under apartheid,

953

: 00:54:55

just like in the USA, they were

not admitting black students.

954

: 00:54:58

black students to predominantly

historically white schools.

955

: 00:55:01

You had to have the Morehouse and the

Spellmans and, but in the case of South

956

: 00:55:06

Africa, they're called technicons.

957

: 00:55:08

And you do what Bukati Washington first

started out to do in Tuskegee, which is,

958

: 00:55:13

you know, trade school, learn how to be

a carpenter, use your hands basically.

959

: 00:55:18

And, um, but then they moved

on to becoming more, you

960

: 00:55:21

know, um, humanities based.

961

: 00:55:23

And I found out that none of those

generational students knew Miriam Makeba.

962

: 00:55:28

Because she had been removed

from the history, just like

963

: 00:55:31

we're talking about now.

964

: 00:55:32

Why don't students understand

certain things here?

965

: 00:55:35

They are in her homeland.

966

: 00:55:37

There were kids who went college

and never knew the name, never knew.

967

: 00:55:43

Some of them will say, Oh

no, I recognize that song.

968

: 00:55:46

My parents played in their

bedroom quietly in a low volume.

969

: 00:55:50

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

970

: 00:55:51

I recognize that.

971

: 00:55:52

So this was what apartheid did

basically was, you know, ensure

972

: 00:55:55

that this person was wiped out of

history or wiped out of the news.

973

: 00:56:00

And because who controlled the news,

you know, I mean, internet was not,

974

: 00:56:04

you know, people were not on Facebook

and all that back then and news

975

: 00:56:08

wasn't circulating at that rate.

976

: 00:56:10

People controlled it, right?

977

: 00:56:12

And so, um, we got to give

praise to Miriam Zenzile Makeba.

978

: 00:56:17

And, um, I was, you know, compelled into

writing a musical about her life and, uh,

979

: 00:56:22

which the Carnegie, you know, Foundation

kindly, you know, funded and the U.

980

: 00:56:27

S.

981

: 00:56:27

government, the U.

982

: 00:56:28

S.

983

: 00:56:28

State Department in Cape Town, South

Africa, you know, um, did everything to

984

: 00:56:33

make sure, um, it was successful and,

um, because at that time the, um, The,

985

: 00:56:40

uh, Consul General was a guy who had

gone to, uh, what's the school in, um,

986

: 00:56:49

he'd gone to the school, uh, HBCU in,

um, Louisiana, uh, Grambling, he, he was

987

: 00:56:54

a graduate of Grambling, so, yeah, so

he saw this and he was, uh, was like,

988

: 00:56:59

wow, This is, I mean, he was watching

the parallels between that and the civil

989

: 00:57:04

rights movement on stage and say, you

know, this, this has to go to the USA.

990

: 00:57:08

This is, this is our story.

991

: 00:57:09

Tony Tidbit: Right.

992

: 00:57:10

Right.

993

: 00:57:10

Dr. Niyi Coker: And yeah.

994

: 00:57:11

Tony Tidbit: But you know what, Dr.

995

: 00:57:13

Coker, I mean, listen, you have, um,

you have faith to so many stories

996

: 00:57:21

of African American people who the

majority of us know nothing about.

997

: 00:57:27

I mean, you are a walking and I,

and don't, you know, I want to

998

: 00:57:30

say encyclopedia, but you know,

when it comes to walking, Google,

999

: 00:57:35

Chris P. Reed: right.

: 1000

00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:42,590

Tony Tidbit: No, but when it comes to

history and, and really understanding it,

: 1001

00:57:42,719 --> 00:57:47,850

um, and these are one of the reasons why

it's important to make history available

: 1002

00:57:47,850 --> 00:57:52,680

to everyone, because then you can make

the connection from past to the present.

: 1003

00:57:52,740 --> 00:57:53,280

Right.

: 1004

00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,789

And then obviously, like you said

earlier, not hopefully try not.

: 1005

00:57:59,050 --> 00:58:04,210

So, so, so for somebody out there

that's listening to this podcast, and

: 1006

00:58:04,210 --> 00:58:09,150

they're saying, wow, I would love to

be, you know, uh, someone like a Dr.

: 1007

00:58:09,150 --> 00:58:12,880

Coker, what type of advice would

you give to somebody aspiring to

: 1008

00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:17,315

grow up, Uh, and look, maybe it's

in film, maybe it's in television

: 1009

00:58:17,315 --> 00:58:19,535

or just maybe it's in any endeavor.

: 1010

00:58:19,785 --> 00:58:20,915

What advice would you give them?

: 1011

00:58:22,315 --> 00:58:26,554

Dr. Niyi Coker: I would say in every

endeavor that you're in, please look

: 1012

00:58:26,655 --> 00:58:28,725

at the Africa centered perspective.

: 1013

00:58:30,010 --> 00:58:35,970

Um, there is an Africa in every endeavor,

whether it's in medicine, um, where

: 1014

00:58:35,970 --> 00:58:40,080

basically if you look at the discipline

of medicine people, you know, they

: 1015

00:58:40,099 --> 00:58:43,660

have to take the Hippocratic oath

and, you know, no medicine started way

: 1016

00:58:43,660 --> 00:58:49,060

before Hippocrates, you know, you got

to go back into, you know, basically,

: 1017

00:58:49,100 --> 00:58:52,920

you know, um, ancient committing

and look at people like him hotel.

: 1018

00:58:53,805 --> 00:58:57,225

Who were the first, you know,

physicians and, and this was

: 1019

00:58:57,225 --> 00:58:58,625

way before Greece and Rome.

: 1020

00:58:59,285 --> 00:59:03,125

Um, so long, you know, law

started way before so long.

: 1021

00:59:03,755 --> 00:59:09,505

Um, you know, um, Pythagoras theory,

mathematics, where a mathematician, it

: 1022

00:59:09,505 --> 00:59:11,575

started way before Pythagoras, you know.

: 1023

00:59:11,914 --> 00:59:15,315

And all these folks, a philosopher,

you want to talk about Socrates.

: 1024

00:59:15,345 --> 00:59:19,695

Even Socrates says he had to go

learn at the foot of people with

: 1025

00:59:19,705 --> 00:59:21,194

woolly hair and burnt faces.

: 1026

00:59:21,194 --> 00:59:21,234

Socrates.

: 1027

00:59:21,815 --> 00:59:24,545

Uh, cross the seven cataract,

which is in North Africa.

: 1028

00:59:25,085 --> 00:59:32,445

So, um, so basically, whatever this is,

where this becomes a goal, if you know,

: 1029

00:59:32,585 --> 00:59:38,575

um, we need to make change ourselves,

nobody's going to make it for us is that,

: 1030

00:59:38,615 --> 00:59:45,385

you know, whatever discipline you're

in, commit yourself to looking at where

: 1031

00:59:46,095 --> 00:59:51,695

it got truncated in terms of knowledge

to turn it into a Western centered.

: 1032

00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:56,840

area of study and look

at those connections that

: 1033

00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,820

take you back to the

first and the earliest.

: 1034

01:00:01,890 --> 01:00:04,020

I mean, we know the first human

beings came out of Africa,

: 1035

01:00:04,900 --> 01:00:06,400

so they were not idiots.

: 1036

01:00:06,410 --> 01:00:07,040

They were not stupid.

: 1037

01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:10,990

This, this would, this would

people who had a language and had

: 1038

01:00:10,990 --> 01:00:16,580

a culture and learn how to fish and

use a Kano and learned astronomy

: 1039

01:00:16,580 --> 01:00:18,670

and the stars and knew about rain.

: 1040

01:00:18,670 --> 01:00:22,550

And I mean, so whatever

way you want to dissect it.

: 1041

01:00:23,425 --> 01:00:29,325

You got to understand that whatever

discipline you're in, please go back

: 1042

01:00:29,325 --> 01:00:34,465

and look at what Malifi Kete Asante

calls the Afrocentric perspective.

: 1043

01:00:35,185 --> 01:00:38,025

Just go back and look at, well,

where did it get truncated?

: 1044

01:00:39,505 --> 01:00:39,835

Okay.

: 1045

01:00:39,835 --> 01:00:41,205

What was before that?

: 1046

01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:46,160

You know that we're not being told about

and look at what was before that and

: 1047

01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:50,790

then, you know, bring that knowledge

into whatever area you're in and

: 1048

01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:55,020

whether it's even, you know, the way

public law and legislation is written.

: 1049

01:00:55,670 --> 01:00:58,770

I mean, I lived in the state of

Alabama and I bought a lot of those.

: 1050

01:00:58,830 --> 01:01:02,220

Um, I, you know, used to take

students to Selma quite a bit

: 1051

01:01:02,270 --> 01:01:04,380

to the voting rights museum.

: 1052

01:01:04,870 --> 01:01:09,380

And, um, you would see that some

of the questions they would ask.

: 1053

01:01:10,170 --> 01:01:14,170

Um, questions to determine whether or

not as a black person, you could vote.

: 1054

01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:16,420

How many bubbles are there in a bar?

: 1055

01:01:16,420 --> 01:01:20,710

So , I mean, I, I had this, I, I

mean, I actually have, I've made

: 1056

01:01:20,710 --> 01:01:24,400

copies, you know, so I mean, I

said, oh no, they failed the exam.

: 1057

01:01:24,990 --> 01:01:29,880

So you need to go back to stuff like

that and look at how that then entered

: 1058

01:01:29,885 --> 01:01:32,640

into law and entered into poly.

: 1059

01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:35,720

I mean, it wasn't until when

I was in, I think, yeah, my

: 1060

01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:37,310

first year in Alabama was 99.

: 1061

01:01:37,730 --> 01:01:43,950

In: 2001

what's called the intermarriage

: 1062

01:01:43,980 --> 01:01:45,085

app was taking up the books.

: 1063

01:01:45,830 --> 01:01:48,830

So up until: 2001

: 1064

01:01:49,350 --> 01:01:52,630

For you to get married to

somebody of a different race?

: 1065

01:01:52,630 --> 01:01:52,810

Yes.

: 1066

01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:54,220

But they were not enforcing it.

: 1067

01:01:54,225 --> 01:01:54,895

But it's still on the books.

: 1068

01:01:54,895 --> 01:01:55,365

But it was still on the books.

: 1069

01:01:55,595 --> 01:01:56,205

It's still on the books.

: 1070

01:01:56,295 --> 01:01:56,806

Still on the books.

: 1071

01:01:56,885 --> 01:01:57,045

Yeah.

: 1072

01:01:57,090 --> 01:01:59,210

So they had to take it of votes.

: 1073

01:01:59,215 --> 01:01:59,510

Yeah.

: 1074

01:01:59,660 --> 01:02:02,270

So it's on the books, so, which

means anybody can enforce it.

: 1075

01:02:02,810 --> 01:02:06,740

Look at what's happening in Arizona

with the, the debates, the abortion,

: 1076

01:02:07,310 --> 01:02:09,740

this, were not even on the, it

wasn't the state yet, but they've

: 1077

01:02:09,740 --> 01:02:11,060

gone and pulled it out of the books.

: 1078

01:02:11,065 --> 01:02:11,185

Right.

: 1079

01:02:11,390 --> 01:02:12,920

So we need to go into those books.

: 1080

01:02:13,835 --> 01:02:21,605

Whatever discipline we're in and go and

make the corrective measures that, you

: 1081

01:02:21,605 --> 01:02:29,025

know, basically would put us, put the

world, not just us, it will put the world

: 1082

01:02:29,075 --> 01:02:31,165

in a better place and help the world.

: 1083

01:02:31,630 --> 01:02:33,940

To find its own humanity

: 1084

01:02:34,530 --> 01:02:34,880

Tony Tidbit: buddy.

: 1085

01:02:35,070 --> 01:02:35,660

I love it.

: 1086

01:02:35,770 --> 01:02:36,580

Yeah, I love it

: 1087

01:02:36,750 --> 01:02:39,900

Chris P. Reed: I think I think I

think that's a powerful You know final

: 1088

01:02:39,900 --> 01:02:43,250

thought for our listeners to understand

heritage and understand its impact

: 1089

01:02:43,250 --> 01:02:47,070

on what we are doing now in order

for us to Forge a good path into our

: 1090

01:02:47,070 --> 01:02:52,410

future My question to you is how can

a black executive podcast help you?

: 1091

01:02:52,590 --> 01:02:56,770

How can we do anything to assist anything

you have going on or or get on the

: 1092

01:02:56,770 --> 01:02:58,190

train that is is headed in the right?

: 1093

01:02:58,190 --> 01:03:01,685

direction that is Uh, your work, uh,

: 1094

01:03:02,235 --> 01:03:05,395

Dr. Niyi Coker: I would say please,

you know, one of the major things that

: 1095

01:03:05,395 --> 01:03:09,715

I do is I have a series called the

Africa wall documentary film festival.

: 1096

01:03:10,855 --> 01:03:15,535

And the Africa World Documentary Film

Festival happens every year started.

: 1097

01:03:15,895 --> 01:03:17,515

It's in the 16th or 17th year.

: 1098

01:03:17,515 --> 01:03:21,555

Now it's only dedicated to

documentary films that deal

: 1099

01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:22,695

with the African experience.

: 1100

01:03:22,695 --> 01:03:27,375

It's got a website, ww Africa

world film festival.dot com.

: 1101

01:03:28,125 --> 01:03:33,215

It's only dedicated to themes that

talk about the African heritage

: 1102

01:03:33,515 --> 01:03:35,255

everywhere around the world.

: 1103

01:03:35,865 --> 01:03:37,275

And you'd be surprised.

: 1104

01:03:37,275 --> 01:03:38,715

Themes coming from India.

: 1105

01:03:38,745 --> 01:03:38,835

Mm-Hmm.

: 1106

01:03:39,895 --> 01:03:42,495

That actually teach us with.

: 1107

01:03:42,865 --> 01:03:45,825

You know, documentary films,

you need to start today.

: 1108

01:03:45,865 --> 01:03:47,145

This is way before AI.

: 1109

01:03:47,165 --> 01:03:49,905

So they can you and you go into

your history, you'll find it.

: 1110

01:03:50,275 --> 01:03:53,555

I was surprised to find that

there's a group of people in

: 1111

01:03:53,635 --> 01:03:56,965

Hyderabad, India, known as CDs, S.

: 1112

01:03:57,015 --> 01:03:57,195

I.

: 1113

01:03:57,195 --> 01:03:57,475

D.

: 1114

01:03:57,475 --> 01:03:57,605

I.

: 1115

01:03:57,605 --> 01:03:58,045

S.

: 1116

01:03:59,105 --> 01:03:59,495

Who?

: 1117

01:04:00,055 --> 01:04:02,785

Everybody in India

acknowledges came from Africa.

: 1118

01:04:03,475 --> 01:04:04,915

They keep the African entity.

: 1119

01:04:05,005 --> 01:04:05,515

Chris P. Reed: Mm-Hmm.

: 1120

01:04:05,715 --> 01:04:06,735

Dr. Niyi Coker: And guess what?

: 1121

01:04:06,735 --> 01:04:09,465

They're the greatest Rios and historians.

: 1122

01:04:09,990 --> 01:04:10,340

Inaba.

: 1123

01:04:10,545 --> 01:04:10,965

Chris P. Reed: Mm-Hmm.

: 1124

01:04:11,325 --> 01:04:16,665

Dr. Niyi Coker: They keep Hydra

stories and songs and narratives going.

: 1125

01:04:17,145 --> 01:04:23,105

And so to see a documentary on this for me

was like, wow, we, the Africans in India,

: 1126

01:04:23,404 --> 01:04:25,475

I have gotten documentaries from China.

: 1127

01:04:26,455 --> 01:04:29,335

People trying to, you know, linking.

: 1128

01:04:29,690 --> 01:04:35,230

You know, parts of China with the coming

of Africans who came into China, but,

: 1129

01:04:35,390 --> 01:04:40,400

you know, never made it into Western

history, but are respected in China

: 1130

01:04:40,430 --> 01:04:45,310

for their presence in China, what they

brought to China, you know, so all these

: 1131

01:04:45,340 --> 01:04:50,000

documentaries, I think, you know, one

thing I came to realize in running this

: 1132

01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:54,420

documentary for so many years is the one

thing that separates us is the language.

: 1133

01:04:54,980 --> 01:04:59,420

So you get the documentaries coming

from Portuguese speaking Africans.

: 1134

01:04:59,775 --> 01:05:02,325

French speaking Africans in

different parts of the world.

: 1135

01:05:02,475 --> 01:05:07,485

Spanish speaking, Africans, English

speaking Africans, um, Africans who speak

: 1136

01:05:07,485 --> 01:05:13,055

just, um, Hindu Africans who speak tag

gala you, so you get all this different,

: 1137

01:05:13,265 --> 01:05:19,415

you know, but then they subtitle it

and, um, it, it's very eyeopening.

: 1138

01:05:19,475 --> 01:05:20,795

It's eyeopening.

: 1139

01:05:20,825 --> 01:05:25,475

And I think, you know, um, linked to

your podcast, uh, you know, people could.

: 1140

01:05:25,725 --> 01:05:30,525

Please go on there and just look at

titles and, and then go on, you know,

: 1141

01:05:30,565 --> 01:05:34,125

in search of those documentaries

who are all basically now online,

: 1142

01:05:34,505 --> 01:05:38,125

you know, pretty much and get

educated, you know, buddy and info

: 1143

01:05:38,475 --> 01:05:39,285

Tony Tidbit: count on it.

: 1144

01:05:39,325 --> 01:05:41,945

So I'm going to circle back

with you after this, because

: 1145

01:05:41,945 --> 01:05:42,715

I mean,

: 1146

01:05:42,745 --> 01:05:48,925

we, you, I don't, I mean, buddy, this has

been so fulfilling for me and I'm pretty

: 1147

01:05:48,925 --> 01:05:50,495

sure I'm speaking for Chris as well.

: 1148

01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:52,790

Double A to producer Noel.

: 1149

01:05:53,100 --> 01:05:57,090

Um, you just have a wealth of knowledge

and I, and you just expanded in

: 1150

01:05:57,090 --> 01:05:58,820

this hour that we've been chatting.

: 1151

01:05:59,315 --> 01:06:03,575

You've expanded my knowledge and

things that I didn't even know about

: 1152

01:06:03,575 --> 01:06:08,475

and given me a thirst to continue to

learn, to learn more about those things.

: 1153

01:06:08,475 --> 01:06:12,775

So I definitely, as you know, as Chris

asked you, what can we do for you?

: 1154

01:06:12,955 --> 01:06:14,555

We definitely going to link into that.

: 1155

01:06:14,555 --> 01:06:18,955

And one of the other things we love to

have you come back and talk further.

: 1156

01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:20,640

About other areas.

: 1157

01:06:20,700 --> 01:06:26,170

Um, because at the end of the day,

education, knowledge is power and

: 1158

01:06:26,170 --> 01:06:30,730

the more that, you know, the more you

enlighten, you become, and then more

: 1159

01:06:30,730 --> 01:06:33,570

Dr. Niyi Coker: and go ahead, buddy,

but it can be, it can be a burden

: 1160

01:06:33,590 --> 01:06:36,490

too, though, because when, you know,

you're like, Oh no, why do I know?

: 1161

01:06:36,970 --> 01:06:38,471

Why do I know that you're

: 1162

01:06:38,471 --> 01:06:38,863

getting

: 1163

01:06:38,863 --> 01:06:39,645

very angry?

: 1164

01:06:39,645 --> 01:06:40,036

Yes.

: 1165

01:06:40,036 --> 01:06:40,427

You

: 1166

01:06:40,427 --> 01:06:40,818

Tony Tidbit: know,

: 1167

01:06:40,818 --> 01:06:44,390

Dr. Niyi Coker: I mean, when I say

angry, you're getting, Oh my, I mean,

: 1168

01:06:44,390 --> 01:06:45,840

you, you're like, not another one.

: 1169

01:06:45,850 --> 01:06:46,190

Yeah.

: 1170

01:06:46,190 --> 01:06:46,269

Yeah.

: 1171

01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:47,700

Not, Oh, wow.

: 1172

01:06:47,700 --> 01:06:49,410

Why, how did this happen to us?

: 1173

01:06:49,470 --> 01:06:49,860

Right.

: 1174

01:06:49,860 --> 01:06:50,870

You know, right, right.

: 1175

01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:52,310

You know, so yeah.

: 1176

01:06:52,430 --> 01:06:58,220

Um, I'm sorry, but knowledge is power.

: 1177

01:06:58,330 --> 01:06:59,450

Tony Tidbit: You're a

hundred percent right.

: 1178

01:06:59,460 --> 01:07:03,760

It does make you, it can make you

get up angry because you see things.

: 1179

01:07:04,910 --> 01:07:07,029

You're playing chess, not checkers, right?

: 1180

01:07:07,029 --> 01:07:10,480

You're seeing things play out, you

know, where they're going with it and

: 1181

01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:14,310

where other people who don't have that

knowledge are just, you know, walking and

: 1182

01:07:14,310 --> 01:07:16,500

talking and have no clue what's going on.

: 1183

01:07:16,510 --> 01:07:18,470

So it can definitely, uh, do that.

: 1184

01:07:18,470 --> 01:07:21,420

But we want to thank you for joining

a black executive perspective.

: 1185

01:07:21,420 --> 01:07:26,529

My brother, um, you know, And look,

we could be talking another couple

: 1186

01:07:26,529 --> 01:07:27,930

of hours and we would enjoy it.

: 1187

01:07:28,355 --> 01:07:30,035

Um, but we want to thank you.

: 1188

01:07:30,045 --> 01:07:32,005

We really appreciate you joining.

: 1189

01:07:32,015 --> 01:07:34,745

And like I said, we'd love for you

to come back at some other time.

: 1190

01:07:35,625 --> 01:07:36,065

Dr. Niyi Coker: Thank you.

: 1191

01:07:36,065 --> 01:07:39,595

I will definitely love to, I will

definitely love to, because I mean, this

: 1192

01:07:39,605 --> 01:07:44,196

is, I mean, it's like sitting down, just,

you know, old heads, just sitting down.

: 1193

01:07:44,196 --> 01:07:46,400

You're shooting the

breeze, man, absolutely.

: 1194

01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:46,767

It's

: 1195

01:07:46,767 --> 01:07:49,337

Chris P. Reed: the intellectual, it's

the intellectual barbershop, man,

: 1196

01:07:49,337 --> 01:07:50,654

it's the intellectual barbershop.

: 1197

01:07:50,654 --> 01:07:51,147

This

: 1198

01:07:51,147 --> 01:07:55,084

Tony Tidbit: is the barbershop,

this is the barbershop, exactly.

: 1199

01:07:55,085 --> 01:07:56,275

Well, thank you, my brother.

: 1200

01:07:56,665 --> 01:08:00,755

But I think it's now

time for Tony's tidbit.

: 1201

01:08:00,925 --> 01:08:01,415

All right.

: 1202

01:08:01,415 --> 01:08:04,935

So Tony's tidbit, um, based on what Dr.

: 1203

01:08:04,935 --> 01:08:05,845

talked about, Dr.

: 1204

01:08:05,845 --> 01:08:06,895

Coker talked about today.

: 1205

01:08:06,895 --> 01:08:13,785

Today's tidbit is by a Amiri Baraka

and the tidbit is we must act as if

: 1206

01:08:13,805 --> 01:08:22,604

we answer to, and only answer to our

ancestors, our children and the unborn.

: 1207

01:08:23,300 --> 01:08:23,660

All right.

: 1208

01:08:23,670 --> 01:08:25,990

And that's from a Amiri Baraka.

: 1209

01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:30,160

So again, I hope you enjoyed this

episode of black executive perspective.

: 1210

01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:30,840

However,

: 1211

01:08:31,590 --> 01:08:34,020

Chris P. Reed: it's time for

need to know within the singer.

: 1212

01:08:34,725 --> 01:08:37,015

And so what do we need

to know this week Nsenga?

: 1213

01:08:37,995 --> 01:08:39,715

Dr. Nsenga Burton: Hello, and

welcome to your need to know

: 1214

01:08:39,715 --> 01:08:41,404

moment with Nsenga Burton.

: 1215

01:08:41,444 --> 01:08:45,585

I am here today talking about DEI

again, because it is a trending

: 1216

01:08:45,615 --> 01:08:47,484

topic that just will not go away.

: 1217

01:08:47,895 --> 01:08:51,045

And today I want to talk

about the, as it relates to

: 1218

01:08:51,055 --> 01:08:52,795

institutions of higher education.

: 1219

01:08:53,245 --> 01:08:57,354

Um, and what is happening with, you

know, what happens kind of like the,

: 1220

01:08:57,375 --> 01:09:03,075

the, uh, domino effect of, uh, what

happens when major corporations, uh,

: 1221

01:09:03,085 --> 01:09:07,024

like zoom and other corporations like

that, get rid of their DEI initiatives.

: 1222

01:09:07,375 --> 01:09:09,835

Uh, what happens is other

institutions follow suit,

: 1223

01:09:10,065 --> 01:09:11,635

whether it makes sense or not.

: 1224

01:09:11,975 --> 01:09:16,415

So, for example, Duke University

is getting rid of its scholarship

: 1225

01:09:16,415 --> 01:09:18,904

programs for African American students.

: 1226

01:09:19,354 --> 01:09:19,975

Um.

: 1227

01:09:20,210 --> 01:09:23,680

And what's interesting about that is

that a lot of scholarship programs that

: 1228

01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:29,140

are set up, particularly when they're

for named individuals are, um, because,

: 1229

01:09:29,440 --> 01:09:34,660

um, you know, they are trying to help

students who might need more help.

: 1230

01:09:34,660 --> 01:09:38,260

Not that they're under educated, not

that they have lower grades, none of

: 1231

01:09:38,260 --> 01:09:42,510

those things, but because they have been

part of a historically disenfranchised

: 1232

01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:46,979

group that was previously banned

from attending said university.

: 1233

01:09:47,340 --> 01:09:49,663

Um, they put these scholarships

in place to help them.

: 1234

01:09:49,765 --> 01:09:54,945

To help make sure to ensure that this

doesn't happen and to reward people for

: 1235

01:09:54,955 --> 01:10:01,155

being outstanding students, scholars,

um, you know, servants, public servants,

: 1236

01:10:01,315 --> 01:10:03,925

community servants, all of those things.

: 1237

01:10:04,865 --> 01:10:10,155

And idea that you could have a whole

basketball team that's black on

: 1238

01:10:10,155 --> 01:10:14,765

a full scholarship, but you can't

have a black folks on academic

: 1239

01:10:14,765 --> 01:10:19,395

scholarships because it's, uh, um, it's.

: 1240

01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:22,200

It's racist is ridiculous.

: 1241

01:10:22,750 --> 01:10:26,230

They have amazing trailblazers who've

gone there who've attended there who

: 1242

01:10:26,230 --> 01:10:27,700

have nothing to do with athletics.

: 1243

01:10:28,270 --> 01:10:33,260

Um, and so it really is a painful

to see an institution like that

: 1244

01:10:33,350 --> 01:10:34,800

just fall over to the wayside.

: 1245

01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:40,300

So quickly, and go down the route

that is on the wrong side of history.

: 1246

01:10:40,660 --> 01:10:44,710

Why is the response just to roll

over and let's figure out how

: 1247

01:10:45,370 --> 01:10:46,770

not to get involved in this?

: 1248

01:10:47,145 --> 01:10:52,805

And how to make this, uh, open this

up to all the students when you

: 1249

01:10:52,805 --> 01:10:55,665

historically have been an institution

that was not open to all the students.

: 1250

01:10:56,545 --> 01:11:01,235

Particularly black students,

right brown students, um, and, uh,

: 1251

01:11:01,245 --> 01:11:02,715

especially immigrant students too.

: 1252

01:11:02,725 --> 01:11:03,045

Right?

: 1253

01:11:03,055 --> 01:11:07,125

So, when you allow outsiders to come in

and tell you what you should be teaching

: 1254

01:11:07,125 --> 01:11:09,985

and what you should be doing, which

you should be studying when you allow

: 1255

01:11:09,995 --> 01:11:14,645

outsiders to come in and to stymie real

conversations that are difficult to have.

: 1256

01:11:14,675 --> 01:11:15,035

Right?

: 1257

01:11:15,225 --> 01:11:16,775

Because this is what all

this is about, right?

: 1258

01:11:16,775 --> 01:11:18,705

The comfort ability of

those who've been in power.

: 1259

01:11:19,050 --> 01:11:19,280

Right?

: 1260

01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:22,130

So we don't want to have these

conversations because they're difficult.

: 1261

01:11:22,140 --> 01:11:24,350

It makes me feel weird.

: 1262

01:11:24,350 --> 01:11:25,820

It makes me feel uncomfortable.

: 1263

01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:27,730

Um, this is what happens.

: 1264

01:11:27,730 --> 01:11:31,120

This is the fallout from that is their

goal and objective is not to make

: 1265

01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:34,200

sure that students get a complex.

: 1266

01:11:34,585 --> 01:11:38,215

Education where they're able

to deal with complicated issues

: 1267

01:11:38,215 --> 01:11:39,875

that are difficult and painful.

: 1268

01:11:40,195 --> 01:11:41,675

Um, but they have to be dealt with.

: 1269

01:11:41,675 --> 01:11:43,085

So we don't repeat them again.

: 1270

01:11:43,145 --> 01:11:43,495

Right?

: 1271

01:11:43,825 --> 01:11:48,684

Um, when you let people come in and

determine what's important for your

: 1272

01:11:48,735 --> 01:11:51,975

institution, which you should be

discussing, which books you should be

: 1273

01:11:51,975 --> 01:11:55,195

reading and they're not even there,

even if they're alums, they haven't

: 1274

01:11:55,195 --> 01:11:57,015

been there in 30, 40, 50 years.

: 1275

01:11:57,455 --> 01:11:58,445

Then this is what happens.

: 1276

01:11:58,445 --> 01:12:02,525

We're gonna hire this wonderful person,

uh, at UNC Chapel Hill, but oh no,

: 1277

01:12:02,525 --> 01:12:05,675

we're gonna rescind the offer because

oh my gosh, you might bring something

: 1278

01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:11,495

up that's gonna be difficult for people

to take or to, to, to, uh, critique.

: 1279

01:12:11,955 --> 01:12:15,315

And that is the part that's

missing in academic institutions.

: 1280

01:12:15,315 --> 01:12:18,580

They are places of humanistic inquiry, so.

: 1281

01:12:19,375 --> 01:12:22,275

When you don't have these real

discussions, when you try to put

: 1282

01:12:22,275 --> 01:12:26,055

your foot on the neck of people who

are willing to have these difficult

: 1283

01:12:26,075 --> 01:12:31,225

construct, uh, difficult discussions who

have done the heavy lifting, you know,

: 1284

01:12:31,595 --> 01:12:34,155

who have spent their academic lives.

: 1285

01:12:34,445 --> 01:12:39,285

I'm really exploring these issues living

in these places reporting on these issues.

: 1286

01:12:39,684 --> 01:12:41,505

When you try to stymie

that that's what you get.

: 1287

01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:47,760

I just wanted to say in part 2 of My DEI

that until we really start having these

: 1288

01:12:47,760 --> 01:12:52,620

conversations until we really decide that

it is okay for you to be uncomfortable.

: 1289

01:12:52,620 --> 01:12:55,050

And some of these topics will

make you uncomfortable and

: 1290

01:12:55,050 --> 01:12:56,680

we don't have to all agree.

: 1291

01:12:57,684 --> 01:13:01,065

On the topics, and it doesn't have

to be, you know, this is 1 side.

: 1292

01:13:01,075 --> 01:13:03,795

And the 2nd, the other side, it

could be like, 5 or 10 sides.

: 1293

01:13:03,825 --> 01:13:05,695

Like, it could be lots of discussion.

: 1294

01:13:05,905 --> 01:13:07,605

That is what education is for.

: 1295

01:13:07,815 --> 01:13:14,065

So, I would encourage you to think more

deeply and thoughtfully about DEI to think

: 1296

01:13:14,085 --> 01:13:20,335

about the ways in which it impacts you to

think about the people, particularly those

: 1297

01:13:20,335 --> 01:13:25,405

who are historically disenfranchised and

to think about some possible solutions.

: 1298

01:13:25,755 --> 01:13:27,895

If, in fact, DEI is going to go away.

: 1299

01:13:28,135 --> 01:13:32,115

So then what are we going to do with

all of these people of color who are the

: 1300

01:13:32,115 --> 01:13:36,095

majority, many of whom have done what

they are supposed to have done as American

: 1301

01:13:36,095 --> 01:13:38,965

citizens, including get great grades.

: 1302

01:13:38,965 --> 01:13:41,025

So they can get accepted

to these wonderful schools.

: 1303

01:13:41,275 --> 01:13:43,975

So, I would like for you all to

just think more critically about it.

: 1304

01:13:44,005 --> 01:13:47,555

I would like for you all to ask

people in charge to have real

: 1305

01:13:47,575 --> 01:13:52,245

conversations, moderated conversations

by those who are experts, but real

: 1306

01:13:52,245 --> 01:13:54,035

conversations around these issues.

: 1307

01:13:54,515 --> 01:13:58,335

And to really think about the ways

in which we can be a more inclusive

: 1308

01:13:58,434 --> 01:14:04,635

and equitable society that elevates

everyone, not just those who have been

: 1309

01:14:04,645 --> 01:14:09,495

in power and continue to be in power

and to make the rules as we go forward.

: 1310

01:14:10,235 --> 01:14:12,895

And that is your Need to Know

Moment with Nsenga Burton.

: 1311

01:14:13,184 --> 01:14:14,785

Chris P. Reed: Thanks

Nsenga for that insight.

: 1312

01:14:15,040 --> 01:14:17,130

Can't wait to see what you

come up with next week.

: 1313

01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:19,210

Tony Tidbit: You mean you

both, but that was awesome.

: 1314

01:14:19,440 --> 01:14:21,770

So again, I hope you

enjoyed today's episode.

: 1315

01:14:21,780 --> 01:14:27,050

Voices of the African diaspora

stories across continents.

: 1316

01:14:27,050 --> 01:14:28,830

And our guest today, you kidding me?

: 1317

01:14:29,380 --> 01:14:31,070

This dude gave us a million stores.

: 1318

01:14:34,309 --> 01:14:34,530

Powerful.

: 1319

01:14:34,770 --> 01:14:35,400

Oh my God.

: 1320

01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:36,610

And went deep with them.

: 1321

01:14:36,610 --> 01:14:36,970

Right.

: 1322

01:14:37,480 --> 01:14:41,230

But now is our time for our call

to action is very important that

: 1323

01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:43,180

everyone incorporates L.E.S.S..

: 1324

01:14:43,500 --> 01:14:46,960

You know, it's really our goal here on

a black executive perspective podcast

: 1325

01:14:47,030 --> 01:14:49,390

is decrease racism and all isms.

: 1326

01:14:50,309 --> 01:14:52,660

So less L E S S.

: 1327

01:14:53,075 --> 01:14:54,415

L stands for learn.

: 1328

01:14:54,425 --> 01:14:59,275

We're looking for you to educate

yourself on racial and cultural nuances.

: 1329

01:14:59,275 --> 01:15:01,505

Learn about your fellow

brother and sister.

: 1330

01:15:01,745 --> 01:15:02,975

Chris P. Reed: And E is for empathy.

: 1331

01:15:03,005 --> 01:15:07,765

To understand diverse perspectives is

the key to everything is to understand

: 1332

01:15:07,765 --> 01:15:09,265

where somebody else may be coming from.

: 1333

01:15:09,555 --> 01:15:11,434

Tony Tidbit: And then S is share.

: 1334

01:15:11,515 --> 01:15:15,725

Now you want to share what you've

learned to your friends and family

: 1335

01:15:15,725 --> 01:15:17,595

so they can be enlightened as well.

: 1336

01:15:17,770 --> 01:15:21,600

Chris P. Reed: And the last S is a stop

actively work on stop discrimination,

: 1337

01:15:21,890 --> 01:15:26,670

stopping discrimination, and fostering

inclusivity is the key to our future

: 1338

01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:32,120

will help build a better, more fair

society and a more understanding world.

: 1339

01:15:32,360 --> 01:15:34,160

Let's do all this every day.

: 1340

01:15:34,575 --> 01:15:36,765

And we'll see the changes

that we want to see.

: 1341

01:15:37,845 --> 01:15:38,505

Tony Tidbit: Exactly.

: 1342

01:15:38,505 --> 01:15:40,995

So we're looking for everybody

to incorporate L.E.S.S..

: 1343

01:15:40,995 --> 01:15:41,525

Okay.

: 1344

01:15:41,625 --> 01:15:46,535

So tune in to our next episode, wherever

you get your podcasts, our next episode,

: 1345

01:15:46,555 --> 01:15:51,485

beyond the pages, the evolution of code

and magazine, please go to our website.

: 1346

01:15:51,725 --> 01:15:52,695

Give us a rating.

: 1347

01:15:52,695 --> 01:15:54,675

Let us know how well you like Dr.

: 1348

01:15:54,675 --> 01:15:58,855

Coker, what questions Chris and I didn't

ask him that you want to get asked.

: 1349

01:15:58,855 --> 01:15:59,385

Okay.

: 1350

01:15:59,595 --> 01:16:03,035

Leave us a review, subscribe to

our podcast, wherever you get

: 1351

01:16:03,035 --> 01:16:06,825

your podcast, and you can follow a

black executive perspective podcast

: 1352

01:16:07,085 --> 01:16:13,265

on all our socials, Facebook,

Instagram, LinkedIn X, and TikTok

: 1353

01:16:13,600 --> 01:16:17,280

at a black exec for

our fabulous guest, Dr.

: 1354

01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:20,390

Niyi Coker, my cohost, Chris P.

: 1355

01:16:20,390 --> 01:16:21,980

Reed, give them some love, Chris.

: 1356

01:16:22,150 --> 01:16:22,610

Chris P. Reed: Yes, sir.

: 1357

01:16:22,610 --> 01:16:23,150

Yes, sir.

: 1358

01:16:23,190 --> 01:16:23,640

And then for the

: 1359

01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:26,790

Tony Tidbit: people behind the

glass, my boy double A who all makes

: 1360

01:16:26,790 --> 01:16:30,210

this happen and his new assistant,

Noel, we want to thank them.

: 1361

01:16:30,210 --> 01:16:32,570

We want to thank you for tuning in again.

: 1362

01:16:32,780 --> 01:16:33,620

We love you.

: 1363

01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:35,630

We talked about it and we're out.

: 1364

01:16:39,630 --> 01:16:42,120

BEP Narrator: A black

executive perspective.